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4 points by akkartik 475 days ago | link | parent

malisper, I've told you before about my troubles building Clamp[1], and I haven't learned anything new in the interim. Everytime I try to do anything with asdf I just feel stupid. Including a reference to http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf/Quick-start-summary... in your Readme[2] is not nearly enough. Could you describe, just for your own system:

a) what version of asdf (and sbcl and OS and processor...) you have tried and seen it working on,

b) which directory you put Clamp in when you clone it,

c) which directory you run sbcl from, and

d) what commands you use to load clamp after starting sbcl?

It would only take a few sentences/minutes, and it'll help immeasurably to get people unfamiliar with Common Lisp started with Clamp. Telling people how to get up and running (without needing to understand the dependencies you rely on) is the bare minimum prerequisite necessary to contemplate replacing Arc-on-Racket with Clamp-on-Common-Lisp.

It seems not a month passes without some new project I would find most interesting to try out, except it doesn't have a Readme, or it has a Readme with tons of prose except for the one primary thing I care about in the beginning: what are the precise concrete commands that have been known to have it do something, at least on some one computer? It's a super easy way to stand out among the crowd, and it only takes a few sentences compared to the thousands of lines of code you've already written.

[1] http://www.arclanguage.org/item?id=18895

[2] http://www.arclanguage.org/item?id=18894



3 points by malisper 473 days ago | link

You should only need Clamp to be in ~/common-lisp, and asdf >3.1.2. With that everything else should take care of itself. I think, but I'm not sure, that you can install the latest version of asdf through Quicklisp.

If you want the particular details, I am running sbcl 1.2.11 on Ubuntu 14.04 with Clamp in ~/common-lisp and asdf version 3.1.3. To load Clamp, after using 'M-x Slime' in Emacs to start Slime, I type '(require :clamp)' or '(require :clamp-experimental)' to load it.

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1 point by akkartik 473 days ago | link

Still no luck, sorry. I'm on Ubuntu 14.04 as well, and I'm running sbcl 1.1.14.debian. I did the following:

  $ sudo apt-get install emacs
  $ emacs --version
  GNU Emacs 24.3.1

  $ cat .emacs
  ; from http://melpa.org/#/getting-started
  (require 'package) ;; You might already have this line
  (add-to-list 'package-archives
               '("melpa" . "https://melpa.org/packages/"))
  (when (< emacs-major-version 24)
    ;; For important compatibility libraries like cl-lib
    (add-to-list 'package-archives '("gnu" . "http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/")))
  (package-initialize) ;; You might already have this line

  ; from https://www.common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html
  (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/bin/sbcl")

  $ pwd
  /home/akkartik
  $ ls common-lisp
  Clamp/

  $ emacs
  M-x package-install RET slime RET
  # some errors
  M-x slime
  # seemed to work
  * (require :clamp)
  Don't know how to REQUIRE CLAMP.
     [Condition of type SB-INT:EXTENSION-FAILURE]
I think I might be missing some step in between that you implicitly have..

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3 points by malisper 473 days ago | link

What asdf version are you running?

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1 point by akkartik 473 days ago | link

Ah yes, I meant to ask: how would I answer that?

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3 points by malisper 473 days ago | link

(asdf:asdf-version)

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2 points by akkartik 472 days ago | link

3.0.3

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3 points by malisper 472 days ago | link

That's why you have been having issues. All you need to do is download a more recent version and load it in your .sbclrc file.

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4 points by akkartik 472 days ago | link

Interesting! This is precisely what you need to record in the Readme!! "You need asdf 3.1 or higher." I assume you mean 3.1, right? According to http://www.cliki.net/ASDF the current version is 3.1. Is that really such a big difference?

I didn't think this was a problem since https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/#downloads suggested just using the version that comes with my CL. Should I upgrade my sbcl as well?

Everytime I consider installing asdf manually I'm stymied by that last link. It provides an asdf.lisp but doesn't say what to do with it. Do I just load it? I just tried that without luck. I also tried various incantations from these tabs I have open: https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf-install/tutorial/in...; https://www.common-lisp.net/project/asdf-install/tutorial/se....

Common Lisp's crap documentation is culturally recursively turtles all the way down, just like all the good things about it.. :/ This is why I'm rooting for you to break out of this cycle of suck and improve things. Would you consider starting with a pristine Ubuntu 14.04 without sbcl or anything on it, and saving all the commands you type in until you get to a working Clamp? That would be wonderful to include in the Readme.

Another option might be to eschew asdf since the default versions on the most common Ubuntu release interact so poorly. Just dump all notion of dependencies and directly include all the code you need in the appropriate relative paths. Give me a single "sbcl --load" command to rule them all, just like Arc 3.1's classic "racket -f as.scm".

(It's not just Common Lisp, by the way. I have yet to meet a language-specific package manager that didn't suck. Pip, RubyGems, CPAN, it's all utter garbage. NPM hasn't started to suck yet, but I'm constantly looking for signs of incipient over-complexification.)

Edit: I'd be happy to provide a temporary Ubuntu server on Linode or something for this work.

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3 points by malisper 472 days ago | link

> Is that really such a big difference?

No. It's just that asdf >=3.1.2 will check the ~/common-lisp directory by default. Prior to 3.1.2, you had to manually specify the directories you wanted asdf to check.

> https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/#downloads suggested just using the version that comes with my CL. Should I upgrade my sbcl as well?

It looks like the version of sbcl you are using is old enough that the asdf version it comes with is older than 3.1.2. From that link, there is https://common-lisp.net/project/asdf/asdf.lisp Copy paste that into a file and add `(load "/foo/bar/asdf.lisp")` to your .sbclrc. I believe that Quicklisp comes with a more recent version of asdf, so you can also try setting that up and seeing if that configures asdf properly.

> I also tried various incantations from these tabs I have open

Those are for asdf-install which IS NOT asdf: http://www.cliki.net/asdf-install

asdf-install was the previous version of Quicklisp, but you should now be using Quicklisp instead.

I should spend the time to make Clamp a Quicklisp package so that you would be able to install it with just `(ql:quickload :clamp)` instead of needing to deal with asdf.

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1 point by akkartik 472 days ago | link

That would be great, thanks.

> Those are for asdf-install which IS NOT asdf: http://www.cliki.net/asdf-install

O_O

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1 point by akkartik 471 days ago | link

Ah, I FINALLY managed to get Clamp loaded. Here are the steps I followed from my home directory on Ubuntu 14.04:

  $ sudo apt-get install sbcl
  $ wget https://beta.quicklisp.org/quicklisp.lisp  # following instructions at https://quicklisp.org
  $ sbcl --load quicklisp.lisp
  * (quicklisp-quickstart:install)
  * (ql:add-to-init-file)
  * (quit)
  $ cd quicklisp/local-projects
  $ git clone https://github.com/malisper/Clamp
Now, from any directory:

  $ sbcl
  * (ql:quickload :clamp)
  * (in-package :clamp)
  * (use-syntax :clamp)
Now it's ready!

  * (map [+ _ 1] '(1 2 3))
  (2 3 4)
Woohoo! I'll send you a pull request. Is there some way we can provide an "Arc repl" that's already in the right package and uses the right syntax? I tried this, but it didn't work:

  $ cat quicklisp/local-projects/Clamp/init.lisp
  (ql:quickload :clamp)
  (in-package :clamp)
  (use-syntax :clamp)
  $ sbcl --load quicklisp/local-projects/Clamp/init.lisp
  ; Loading "clamp"
  * (map [+ _ 1] '(1 2 3))
  The variable [+ is unbound.

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3 points by malisper 471 days ago | link

Reader macros work on a per file basis so I don't think there is a way to set the proper syntax from a separate file.

You might want to consider trying to setup Slime, as it provides some really amazing Smalltalk-esque features. I detailed most of them in my blog series, Debugging Lisp[0]. Some of the ones I covered in the post are: recompilation of code at runtime, restarting of a stack frame at runtime, an object inspector, interactive restarts (restarts are a better form of try/catch), various forms of function lookup (e.g. list all functions who call function X). I haven't yet covered it, but I eventually want to, is slime-macrostep[1]. It lets you interactively expand parts of a macro step by step.

[0] http://malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompil...

[1] http://kvardek-du.kerno.org/2016/02/slime-macrostep.html

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1 point by akkartik 469 days ago | link

I'm trying to work through http://malisper.me/2015/07/07/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompil... but I got this error when I tried to restart from any of the stack frames:

  Cannot restart frame: #<SB-DI::COMPILED-FRAME EVAL>

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1 point by akkartik 470 days ago | link

Ah, I figured out a way to run it with just:

  $ clamp
https://github.com/malisper/Clamp/pull/5

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1 point by akkartik 471 days ago | link

Yes, I'll certainly try to add Slime back now that I have the foundation working well together.

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1 point by akkartik 469 days ago | link

I've gotten Slime working, but so far I'm still doing the same things I would do in an interactive session:

  $ emacs
  M-x slime RET
  # in the slime buffer
  * (ql:quickload :clamp)
  * (in-package :clamp)
  * (use-syntax :clamp)
Is that what do you typically do?

Also, when I try to C-x C-e an arc expression in some random buffer after the above steps, it doesn't seem to remember the above commands anymore. The only thing that works is running commands at the repl.

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4 points by malisper 468 days ago | link

> I've gotten Slime working, but so far I'm still doing the same things I would do in an interactive session:

Yes, that's what I typically do. If you wanted to, you could add those instructions to your .sbclrc, and that should load Clamp on start up.

> Also, when I try to C-x C-e an arc expression in some random buffer after the above steps, it doesn't seem to remember the above commands anymore.

You need to have slime-mode enable in the buffer you are editing. You can add the following code to your .emacs:

    (require 'slime)
    (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook (lambda () (slime-mode t)))
and then whenever you open a file that ends in .lisp, it will enable slime-mode.

If you are going to get into programming Lisp with Emacs, you should look into Evil (vim bindings for Emacs), paredit (smart paren editing), ac-slime (autocomplete for slime), show-paren-mode (shows matching parens), and undo-tree (a better version of undo/redo). Although I've never used it, you might want to look at Spacemacs which is supposed to supply sane defaults for Emacs.

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3 points by zck 468 days ago | link

>If you are going to get into programming Lisp with Emacs, you should look into Evil (vim bindings for Emacs), paredit (smart paren editing), ac-slime (autocomplete for slime), show-paren-mode (shows matching parens), and undo-tree (a better version of undo/redo).

Yes, customizing Emacs is really useful for making it better to use. To help with that, here are some of my config's settings for things you've mentioned. My show-paren-mode settings are here (https://bitbucket.org/zck/.emacs.d/src/default/init.el?filev...).

Instead of paredit, I use smartparens. They do similar things, but when I looked at the two, I thought smartparens was better, although I can't remember why right now. My config is here (https://bitbucket.org/zck/.emacs.d/src/default/init.el?filev...).

I should similarly check out the other things you've mentioned (except Evil, 'cause I don't like modal editing).

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1 point by akkartik 468 days ago | link

Ah, that hook was what I needed. Thanks! I'll check out all your tips.

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1 point by akkartik 471 days ago | link

Draft changes to Readme: https://github.com/malisper/Clamp/pull/3/commits/d4e89140b9

Everyone please try out the instructions and/or suggest improvements to the prose.

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2 points by highCs 474 days ago | link

> replacing Arc-on-Racket with Clamp-on-Common-Lisp

We need a compiler for that btw (ie. the arc macro Im talking about nearby?) because 1) language designers need a compiler and 2) right now, it is missing parts of Arc; specifically:

  ('(1 2 3) 0)
  (mylist 0)
  ("Yoopi" 0)
  (+ "Hello" " World")
  top level ssyntax
  What case are missing for destructuring?
  What am I forgetting? Do we have 'for'?

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2 points by highCs 474 days ago | link

Put clamp inside quicklisp/local-projects/

Run your lisp wherever you want and then:

  (asdf:load-system :clamp)
  (defpackage #:mypkg (:use clamp))
  (in-package #:mypkg)
(tested with ccl)

> Telling people how to get up and running

Second that. Some intructions in the README to get clamp up and running on linux would be a must. OSX and windows would be nice to have too.

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3 points by akkartik 474 days ago | link

Doesn't work with sbcl, I'll try it with ccl later today:

  $ uname -a
  Linux akkartik 3.5.0-17-generic #28-Ubuntu SMP Tue Oct 9 19:32:08 UTC 2012 i686 i686 i686 GNU/Linux

  $ pwd
  /home/akkartik

  $ sbcl --version
  SBCL 1.1.14.debian

  $ ls quicklisp/local-projects
  Clamp/  system-index.txt

  $ rlwrap sbcl
  This is SBCL 1.1.14.debian, an implementation of ANSI Common Lisp.
  More information about SBCL is available at <http://www.sbcl.org/>.

  SBCL is free software, provided as is, with absolutely no warranty.
  It is mostly in the public domain; some portions are provided under
  BSD-style licenses.  See the CREDITS and COPYING files in the
  distribution for more information.
  * (require :asdf)

  ("ASDF")
  * (asdf:load-system :clamp)

  debugger invoked on a ASDF/FIND-SYSTEM:MISSING-COMPONENT in thread
  #<THREAD "main thread" RUNNING {ABFC8D1}>:
    Component :CLAMP not found

  Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:EXIT) to exit from SBCL.

  restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name):
    0: [ABORT] Exit debugger, returning to top level.

  ((:METHOD ASDF/OPERATE:OPERATE (SYMBOL T)) ASDF/LISP-ACTION:LOAD-OP :CLAMP) [fast-method]
  0]
  *
Oh, are you using it with Quicklisp? I also tried installing quicklisp as well, but it didn't change the error.

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2 points by highCs 474 days ago | link

I didnt installed clamp using quicklisp which wasnt able to find it. I put clamp myself in the local-projects folder.

I think ccl has an asdf thing and must be at the origin of the quicklisp folder look up. I hoped it was standard.

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1 point by akkartik 474 days ago | link

But you have quicklisp installed with ccl? That's why CCL looks in quicklisp/local-projects?

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1 point by akkartik 474 days ago | link

Hey, is CCL not open-source?

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2 points by highCs 474 days ago | link

It's even free buddy: http://ccl.clozure.com/

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1 point by akkartik 474 days ago | link

Ah, I got confused because the svn repo came with a prebuilt binary. But it has the sources too.

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