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2 points by rocketnia 2738 days ago | link | parent

It actually surprises me how much Versu development resembles some of my own thoughts about organizing large-scale interactive story plots. I once dreamed of making a language for building interacting FSMs, with support for automatic testing or formal model-checking to find dead code. Apparently this was all in the scope of Praxis and Prompter tools, and I didn't have to lift a finger to see this dream come true. ;)

I'm concerned about some drawbacks this project might face, having to do with the use of instantaneous events for modeling story actions and the use of inline dialogue generation.

Instantaneous events are something I tend to see as a misfeature[1]. The notion of a discrete timeline is baked into the sequence-of-paragraphs UI, the screenplay-like Prompter language, the state machines, and the visualization graphs. Even the logical framework needs it, since the characters instantaneously "remove" past beliefs as they're convinced of incompatible beliefs to replace them.

At least it can be said that in Versu's chosen problem domain, events are essential. They couldn't be "fixed" without changing basically the entire story UI, the tools, and the formalism, leading to a completely different product. At least this project seems to have good tooling to tackle many event-related issues head-on.

As for inline dialogue generation, I've just never been comfortable with the thought of generating story prose using string concatenation; at least a more structured format would be nice. Emily Short and Graham Nelson are two of the people who think about this topic quite a lot, and their context-sensitive text macro approach is impressive, but it uses too much stateful magic for me to want to dive in and use it. (Same with some of the naturalistic syntax...) It's not like I dive into story-writing regardless, but it's one of the basic motivations I use to write programs, which is why I have opinions like this one. :-p

Regardless of any drawbacks--even if Versu had been a closed system under Linden Labs--I was always eager to use it. I may not write full stories, but I do design lots of original characters and settings, and Versu has been designed with the high-level idea that characters can be swapped out for each other to see how they interact in different circumstances. It could be just the right platform to give some life to my ideas.


3 points by shader 2736 days ago | link

How would you build a declarative continuous state system on top of arc? Or would it be better to start from scratch?

And what kind of metaprogramming models besides function/macro/fexpr do you see working on top of such a system?

It seems like it could either be a really 'alien' programming model that requires very different approaches, or a simple set of wrappers on top of existing models. I don't know enough about it yet.


3 points by rocketnia 2736 days ago | link

Good questions! I keep wanting to tie this stuff back to Arc somehow, so that people here can care, lol, but it's hard to see where to start.

I'll assume we're talking about something like RDP, but not quite RDP. David Barbour's goals for RDP include safe distributed programming, secure mashups, and sometimes even type-directed reduction of boilerplate. Thus RDP isn't necessarily RDP without an appropriate static type system, and we proabably don't need to commit to that part here.

Let's just call what we're talking about "continuous reactive" code, or "continuous" for short. :)

I'll answer out of order a bit.


"And what kind of metaprogramming models besides function/macro/fexpr do you see working on top of such a system?"

All of these actually keep making sense in a continuous system. The only things that can't technically be carried over are certain kinds of side effects.

Here's a more complete description of the differences:

- Most imperative side effects don't make sense. If (do (= x 1) (= x 0)) is executed continuously at every instant, then at no time is x just 1 or just 0. Continuous reactive programming needs its own particular side effects to deal with continuously displaying things, continuously maintaining connections to things, continuously monitoring the current state of the mouse, etc. Instead of mutation, continuous reactive code can use demand monitors, which aggregate sets of values. Similarly, we would have to avoid effects related to first-class continuations, threads, etc., unless we can make sense of them.

- Since all the effects at a given instant are simultaneous, the data/control flow doesn't need to be processed in a particular order, and it can naturally be concurrent, which in turn means each concurrent part can be undisturbed for a good period of time without needing to be recomputed. This means certain constructs like (if ...) stick out as expensive operations, since they must synchronize their inputs and outputs rather than letting them pass through concurrently.

- Eval and function calls are pretty weird operations. In a continuous program, the entire data flow graph exists like a constantly marching trail of ants, sometimes switching between different conditional branches. I think a dynamic call causes that trail of ants to sometimes snap between different iterations of a fractal pattern. My current implementation[1] supports "functions" but doesn't support arbitrary recursion, because I keep every possible trail instantiated regardless of whether it's currently in use. It's like all the functions are inlined whether we like it or not. (I actually kinda like it.)

- If we care about secure mashups, passing a big context object around tends to be a bad idea, especially if it's implicit. Fexprs may need a redesign in order to avoid passing authority to code that doesn't need it.


"How would you build a declarative continuous state system on top of arc? Or would it be better to start from scratch?"

(Building the execution semantics is probably a bigger challenge than building the state resources, so I'll assume that's what you mean.)

While starting from scratch would keep things simpler, I don't think it's necessary, as long as there's some bridge to manage the continuous side from the procedural side and/or vice versa. A single language could have dedicated syntaxes (e.g. lisp special forms) both for procedural code and for continuous code.

I've actually been thinking about how a single (fn ...) syntax could be used for both. Pure code is a special case of error-free continuous impure code, and that in turn is a special case of error-free procedural code, so a single abstraction might cover it all.

However, dynamic errors make things more interesting. In procedural Arc code, (do (foo) (err "oops 1") (bar) (err "oops 2")) would not execute (bar) because that comes after an error has occurred. In continuous code, all of the code is executed at every instant, so there is no "after" to speak of, and (bar) executes at the same time as both errors occur. (Actually, David's approach would be to terminate the computation as soon as possible and try to roll back any effects that have occurred in the meantime, so in that case (bar) would not usually be seen to execute.)

This is enough of a jarring discrepancy that I've tabled the idea of unifying the (fn ...) syntax in the procedural language I'm working on.[2] I think it's something that can be done, but it's more complex than I first thought.

Anyway, suppose we have two different syntaxes, or suppose (as David prefers) we don't have a continuous (fn ...) syntax at all but instead use concatentive programming techniques.[3]

Either way, it's painful to bridging between one style of computation and another.

Procedural code managing continuous code: Procedural code has to deal with continuous signal input similarly to how it would traditionally deal with keyboard and mouse input, and it has to deal with continuous signal output kind of like drawing to a canvas. This means writing 2-5 imperative code blocks for every bridge, at least until some common bridge patterns can be abstracted away.

Continuous code managing procedural code: One way to use continuous code to trigger an imperative action would be to build a continuously updating collection of the imperative actions we want performed, annotating each one with a timestamp so it's clear when it's supposed to happen exactly. This is cumbersome enough that I haven't tried it yet, but it's basically the kind of FFI layer that a continuous-only language would need in order to play nicely with existing OSes and protocols.

The Web is a good example of a system that already has bridges like what we'd need. An HTML document can have continuously existing tags and attributes that cause JavaScript code to be executed at certain times. In turn, JavaScript code can insert and remove declarative HTML and CSS as it goes along.

Sorry for using so many JS metaphors. :) Aside from Rainbow's UI experiments, I don't know of any Arc applications which continuously monitor or display something.


[1] Underreact:

[2] Penknife, which currently is hidden away inside Era and not described in the readme:

[3] Either way, I've pretty much made this in JavaScript already,[1] but my (fn ...) syntax is a bit cumbersome because I'm using strings for variable identifiers, and my concatenative syntax is even more cumbersome because it has to pass around explicit first-class type annotations with no type inference. I think there's room to improve on this, especially in something like Arc that has macros.


2 points by rocketnia 2736 days ago | link

In case anyone wonders what's wrong with (if ...), I've put together a demonstration of translating Arc-like code into the flavor of generalized arrows[4] David and I use for implementing this stuff:

  (if foo
    (bar baz)
     (  |         +   |       )        |   |   |
     ( foo(true)  +  foo(nil) )       bar baz qux
  foo(true) bar  baz  qux   +   foo(nil) bar baz qux
   |         |    |    |    +    |        |   |   |
  Drop      Drop Drop  |    +   Drop     =Apply= Drop
                       |    +               |
In this graph, sum types (A + B) are edges separated by + and product types (A * B) are simply juxtaposed edges. I've labeled the edges around Disjoin to show which signals go where.

The "Disjoin" operation is the distributive law on product and sum types, taking ((A + B) * C) to ((A * C) + (B * C)). In simple cases, it has to synchronize C with a combination of A and B so it knows which output to send C's packets down.

The "Merge" operation takes (A + A) to A, forgetting which branch it was on. In simple cases, it has to synchronize the original two signals becuase the output should only be inactive when both inputs are inactive. If we're using dynamic typing, we may also need to check the inputs dynamically to make sure their periods of activity don't overlap.

Overall, one call to (if ...) causes multiple synchronization points in the code.

You might wonder what Arc could use here if not (if ...), and my guess is it could use a structured data type with associated special forms that can be implemented with implicit concurrency:

  (def left (x) (annotate 'left x))
  (def right (x) (annotate 'right x))
  ; Sum types distribute over product types.
  ; ((A + B) * C) -> ((A * C) + (B * C))
  (disjoin (left a) c)   -->  (left (list a c))
  (disjoin (right b) c)  -->  (right (list b c))
  (disjoin other c)      -->  (err "Can't disjoin")
  ; Sum types are commutative.
  ; (A + B) -> (B + A)
  (mirror (left a))   -->  (right a)
  (mirror (right b))  -->  (left b)
  (mirror other)      -->  (err "Can't mirror")
  ; Sum types are associative.
  ; ((A + B) + C) -> (A + (B + C))
  (assocsl (left (left a)))    --> (left a)
  (assocsl (left (right b)))   --> (right (left b))
  (assocsl (right c))          --> (right (right c))
  (assocsl other)              --> (err "Can't assocsl")
  ; (A + (B + C)) -> ((A + B) + C)
  (assocsr (left a))           --> (left (left a))
  (assocsr (right (left b)))   --> (left (right b))
  (assocsr (right (right c)))  --> (right c)
  (assocsr other)              --> (err "Can't assocsr")
  ; (A + A) -> A
  (merge (left a))   -->  a
  (merge (right a))  -->  a
  (merge other)      -->  (err "Can't merge")
  ; (A -> C) -> (B -> D) -> ((A + B) -> (C + D))
  ((lift-sum l r) (left a))   -->  (left (l a))
  ((lift-sum l r) (right b))  -->  (right (r b))
  ((lift-sum l r) other)      -->  (err "Can't lift-sum")
This is quite a bundle of special forms to add, and I'm probably forgetting a few. I'm not exactly sure how to implement them, especially considering they would have to deal with Arc's arbitrary recursion. ^_^;



2 points by tvvocold 2724 days ago | link

hi,shader:i have a new problem with arc,but i donot know how to contact it ok to post Q here?


1 point by akkartik 2724 days ago | link

Yes, posting here is best. Sorry I think I missed one of your emails? Was out of town for a while.


2 points by tvvocold 2724 days ago | link

Thx,i have almost done my arc site,but when a user forgot his password and he need to reset by email,but cannot get the email...i wanna know how to add email feature in arc site? by the way,i use to send and they give me HTTP this


1 point by akkartik 2723 days ago | link

Anarki doesn't have mailgun support yet. It will reset passwords if your server supports sending email using the local unix sendmail command. So I can think of two options:

a) Does mailgun provide a sendmail command that you can download? If so, just installing that might be all you need.

b) Anarki has rudimentary support for GET and POST on arbitrary urls.

  arc> (get-url "")
  ("<HTML><HEAD><meta http-equiv=\"content-type\" content=\"text/html;charset=utf-8\"><TITLE>301 Moved</TITLE></HEAD><BODY><H1>301 Moved</H1>The document has moved<A HREF=\"\">here</A>.</BODY></HTML>")
Can you try to figure out the right URL to put into the get-url call or similar post-url call? They're implemented in lib/web.arc, and feel free to ask us questions to help get you on your way.