Arc Forumnew | comments | leaders | submitlogin
3 points by akkartik 3889 days ago | link | parent

I'm conflicted about this post.

1. Bounds checking errors are certainly in keeping with the spirit of scheme, no arguments there. If you care about distinguishing () from [], require if to have an 'else' branch, and consider it important to distinguish between #f and nil, then such substring behavior will fit right into that aesthetic milieu.

2. Incredibly, arc has never had a substring function, so I can't be sure what pg would do. My immediate reaction is that exceeding bounds would be permitted without error, but then sbcl seems to throw an error as well.

I looked at my toy language, which is more in the arc mould and more relaxed about the set of inputs acceptable to low-level primitives:

  ("abc" 0 10)
  024string.cc:21 no such end-index in string: "abc" 10
  => nil
My unit tests show that I never considered out-of-bounds indices. Now that I consider them I'm tempted to permit them silently.

3. I am not persuaded by the reasons in the post. "Do one thing" is subjective about what "one thing" means. The unix creators have spoken out against all the flags that standard commands have creepingly added: http://harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v, recently https://twitter.com/rob_pike/status/410830396444532736. This disagreement with the community at large suggests that the rule of thumb leaves some room for interpretation, making it useless to resolve arguments. The phrase "referentially transparent" is grotesquely misused. The list of useful facts didn't feel compelling. The connection to recent security holes in other languages feels tenuous; you could make the same argument for not permitting lists to contain elements of multiple types if you were a java programmer, and comparing bounds checking to implicit type coercion is just a strawman. The two possible interfaces for substring are just different, there's no magic in either. I'm not convinced that the author made a good-faith attempt to build the "simple" version atop the more complex one.

There's clearly a difference of opinion here, but escalating a simple question to such diverse subjects is just an invitation for flames. Just pointing at the other ways that scheme has a similar policy toward strict and immediate errors suffices to keep aesthetics from devolving into religion.

4. The flame war itself feels, with hindsight and just from reading the archives, unnecessary and a poor advertisement for this community. Responses like http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-hackers/2013-02... and http://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/chicken-hackers/2013-02... made me wince. Perhaps that's partly a culture gap; scanning the archives I found that the noob is still around, so perhaps no major offense was caused. Regardless, this wasn't a flame war so much as the insiders getting together to flame a noob. I looked around for possible reasons why it might have happened, but the mailing list seems to consistently stay around 25-50 participants per year, not high enough volume to justify such frustration. With such a small inflow every newcomer is precious, and every bad experience is hugely significant. The subject of substring doesn't seem to have come up before either, to make them so impatient.

Arc's attitude, championed by aw, is to avoid generalities and look for concrete code examples where an alternative makes for greater concision. That's our aesthetic and it has served well to avoid friction without avoiding debate altogether.



4 points by rocketnia 3888 days ago | link

"Incredibly, arc has never had a substring function, so I can't be sure what pg would do."

Here you go:

  arc> (cut "example" 2 7)
  "ample"
  arc> (cut "example" 2 10)
  Error: "string-ref: index 7 out of range [0, 6] for string: "example""
(Transcript from http://tryarc.org)

-----

2 points by rocketnia 3888 days ago | link

"Arc's attitude, championed by aw, is to avoid generalities and look for concrete code examples where an alternative makes for greater concision."

Yeah, this can be a pretty nice metric sometimes. :) This is probably one of the leading reasons to use weakly typed (or otherwise sloppy) versions of utilities.

-----