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5 points by dido 2364 days ago | link | parent

First of all I don't like the fact that the present reference Arc depends on MzScheme/Racket. This makes setting it up and using it a chore, and I think this is a not insignificant factor in what hobbled wider acceptance of the language. I wanted to be able to just do a ./configure ; make ; make install and start using it, the way I can presently do with, say, Ruby. As it is you have to install a rather large Scheme interpreter (Racket 5.1.1 has over 500,000 lines of code; it might have been a little different if it were a smaller Scheme like scheme48) just to get started.

I've also wanted to have a language like Tcl or Lua that one could easily embed as a scripting language in a larger project. This is one of the things that Arcueid is designed to do: just link a single library and have an interpreter available with a relatively simple API. Arcueid is also be designed to be easily extensible via a simple foreign function interface because I don't want to use it for just programming web applications, although that is something that I would doubtless use it for a lot as well.

Writing in C (or something that compiles to C) is also probably the only way to get an Arc faster than the implementations we have today. Of course my present implementation is still somewhat slower than Arc on Racket, but then again the goal for now is to build a foundation upon which further optimisation can later be done. As always, it's better to get it to work right first, and then make it run quickly later... Eventually Arcueid will have a JIT compiler of sorts but that's a little further down the roadmap.

As for Arc, it seems like it's much better designed than any other Lisp dialect out there. The parentheses are still there, but they are used more sparingly than Scheme, which seems out to irritate you by putting extra parentheses for something so basic as a let binding when you could easily do with less and have more comprehensible code. This fact was illustrated to me about a year ago when rocketnia gave me versions of the Hanson-Lamping algorithm for dynamic-bind in Scheme and in Arc here:

http://arclanguage.org/item?id=15536

The contrast was rather startling to me. I understood the algorithm immediately on seeing the Arc code.

Another thing about other Lisps that is really irritating to me are the overly long function names like multiple-value-bind and invoke-restart-interactively and stuff like that. They make a program look rather cluttered. Arc has for the most part avoided excessively long identifiers in the core and that has been good.

Macros are something that I've also been really interested in, and something that looks like is only really possible with a Lisp. Ruby is my programming language for most of my day to day work and the simple metaprogramming it makes possible makes me wish that it could do macros too, though how it could do that without also transforming into Lisp is another matter.



1 point by Pauan 2364 days ago | link

"[...] though how it could do that without also transforming into Lisp is another matter."

My experiments with Nulan have convinced me that it's easier (and better) to start with a Lisp and then add Ruby syntax which desugars to S-expressions, rather than trying to turn Ruby into a Lisp.

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2 points by rocketnia 2364 days ago | link

I assume by "s-expressions" we mean nested lists whose first elements are often symbols which represent operators. Apparently, Ruby already has built-in support for that code representation: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6894763/extract-the-ast-f...

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1 point by Pauan 2364 days ago | link

Well then, using that it'd be possible to make Ruby macros.

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2 points by rocketnia 2363 days ago | link

Hmm, even if the package for doing this comes with Ruby MRI, I'm not sure there's a corresponding out-of-the-box way to take these s-expressions and get running code. But here's a five-year-old article talking about Ruby2Ruby, a library that converts these s-expressions to strings: http://www.igvita.com/2008/12/11/ruby-ast-for-fun-and-profit...

I don't think a third-party tool should count as language support, unless (and inasmuch as) the people maintaining the language regularly go out of their way to avoid breaking that tool.[1][2] This is where I draw the line, because of how it affects backwards compatibility.

Everyday language users tend to think of language updates as backwards-compatible as long as their existing code has the same behavior. But tools like eval(), JavaScript minifiers, and Ruby2Ruby place the bar higher, since their input is arbitrary language code, and it might be written in a newer language version than the tool itself. Incidentally, even a program that calls these tools will continue to work after a language update, as long as the input of these calls is all generated programmatically, rather than directly taken from the program's input.

[1] Well, I guess the term "third-party" might not apply in that case!

[2] I have no idea how much I'm actually talking about Ruby2Ruby, and this Ruby s-expression format in general, when I make this comment.

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2 points by lark 2358 days ago | link

I too wish Arc could be embedded. The discussion on the size of a language core is suspiciously parallel to the discussion on the size of an operating system core.

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1 point by kinleyd 2364 days ago | link

Since I'm on a roll here, albeit at another level entirely... thanks dido, and more power to you too!

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